ian
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Post by ian on Apr 6, 2018 20:20:45 GMT
Hi everyone, regularly watch Tom`s youtube channel but this is my first 1st post here as I am looking for opinions from those more experienced than me. (I am a plasterer by trade but also do basic plumbing jobs when required and always keen to learn and do the job properly).
Tomorrow I plan on upgrading my outside tap setup from a cheap cut in kit type to a properly plumbed in one to give me more pressure and flow as I have a lot of jetwashing to do. (mossy flags, rendered walls before repainting, motorbikes and a big van). I am also installing a warm water outside tap for bathing the dog. This will be done using a remote TMV like those fitted to new bath installations and will include a double check valve before the pipe exits the building for both the warm and cold taps.
I will also be using full bore isolator valves to minimize restrictions. I also need to renew the mains stopcock as it does not fully shut off and as I am aiming for maximum flow rate I couldn`t help but think of how narrow the passage is on a traditional stopcock and that a full bore lever valve would give a significant advantage.
I am guessing there is a good reason why a traditional stopcock is used and not lever valves and would like to hear a proper plumbers advice and opinion on the matter.
I was also wondering if there is such a thing as a full bore double check valve? I have never seen inside them but imagine the check valve narrows the passage somewhat. I am currently planning on installing a 22mm valve on the 15mm pipe to minimize restriction but would refer to use a 15mm to keep the pipework/fittings to a minimum and keep the installation neat.
Any input would be greatly appreciated,
Ian.
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Post by tomplum on Apr 6, 2018 20:39:01 GMT
Hello Ian and welcome to the forum, you seem to have a good understanding of plumbing and valves and I agree with your idea on using 15mm full bore valves and TMV to govern the temp, check valve are only necessary if you have differant pressures, IE, gravity hot water and mains, this ensures they don't mix as stored water is not potable, If you're on a combi or pressurized system, they are not needed, If you take pics and post them here, we will help you at every stage,  |
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ian
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Post by ian on Apr 6, 2018 21:15:21 GMT
Hi. Thanks for the reply.
I don't think I phrased my first post very well. I only plan on using the check valve as a non return valve from the bib tap as I understand that the regulations don`t approve of the taps with integral checkvalves and they are easily damaged by freezing. My post made it sound like I was using them on the hot and cold supply to the TMV but I am actually installing two outside taps, one cold and a separate warm one from the TMV.
They will be fed from mains cold and a combi and I have reasonable pressure but I am planning on buying a petrol jetwasher and don't want to be short on flow and wreck the pump. (Or spend any longer than necessary jetwashing lol)
I will have no trouble installing everything, will even be soldering everything, I am just lacking the experience of a real plumber to know if/why I shouldn`t use a lever valve as a stopcock or how much check valves restrict the flow. Always trying to learn though and would rather ask the question than do a bodge job.
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Post by battle1066 on Apr 6, 2018 21:48:22 GMT
I was told basically this:- the screw down stop tap will give many years trouble free service and nearly always function even though neglected whilst maintaining a reliable sealing face because of the rubber seal to valve seat sealing arrangement.
Now the lever valve (1/4 turn) will function reliably in many areas to but not once the ball gets corroded, thus failing in the desired function of being able to deal with the harsh environment of the stop location and subject to excessive debris as stop taps are.
below is what the book says
"As with any mechanical device, time can be unkind and eventually if it is not looked after or used, it will become unusable and need replacing. In the home, if all goes well, the main stopcock should need to be used little or hopefully not at all. This poses a problem, as time marches on the stopcock can seize, leading to the stop tap becoming impossible to use or the unit leaking and causing the problem it is there to help contain. In saying all this, we can help stop this happening, with some easy, regular servicing.
Now you know how to find the main stopcock, if you can make sure it is easy to turn, if so, on a regular occasion a little turn once in a while shall ensure smooth operation. If the Stopcock is a little stiff to turn apply some easing oil and allow soaking before working the handle back and forth until it eases. If the tap will not turn at all and easing oil makes no difference then the main stopcock may either need to be replaced or the stop valve may just need taking apart, cleaning and regressing up so that it is just like new again."
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Post by tomplum on Apr 6, 2018 21:58:12 GMT
you've come to the right place Ian, here we believe that ' rules are for fools' , people who drive desks and push pens make rules and regs that build sales for manufacures of not needed gadgets like check valves, We, the plumbers who know what we are doing advice what you need and not what the shiney shoe desk jockey says you have to get to conform, So the way is this, run a flag up a flag pole, if it flys, its right, if it don't rethink, no one ever died because they drunk water from a lead pipe, but its against regs to use lead, lots of people die in cars, but is legal to drive a car, figures lie and liars figure, this is a no bullshit site, Its told here like it is, and your plumbing sounds ok and will work well, do it, |
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ian
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Posts: 294
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Post by ian on Apr 6, 2018 22:23:20 GMT
I was told basically this:- the screw down stop tap will give many years trouble free service and nearly always function even though neglected whilst maintaining a reliable sealing face because of the rubber seal to valve seat sealing arrangement. Now the lever valve (1/4 turn) will function reliably in many areas to but not once the ball gets corroded, thus failing in the desired function of being able to deal with the harsh environment of the stop location and subject to excessive debris as stop taps are. below is what the book says "As with any mechanical device, time can be unkind and eventually if it is not looked after or used, it will become unusable and need replacing. In the home, if all goes well, the main stopcock should need to be used little or hopefully not at all. This poses a problem, as time marches on the stopcock can seize, leading to the stop tap becoming impossible to use or the unit leaking and causing the problem it is there to help contain. In saying all this, we can help stop this happening, with some easy, regular servicing. Now you know how to find the main stopcock, if you can make sure it is easy to turn, if so, on a regular occasion a little turn once in a while shall ensure smooth operation. If the Stopcock is a little stiff to turn apply some easing oil and allow soaking before working the handle back and forth until it eases. If the tap will not turn at all and easing oil makes no difference then the main stopcock may either need to be replaced or the stop valve may just need taking apart, cleaning and regressing up so that it is just like new again." Hi battle. If the only reason is long term reliability I will probably sacrifice that for flow and just keep a traditional stopcock spare incase I should ever need to swap it out. It is very easily accessible so not a big deal. May be worth checking my flow rate as is though first to see if it is even necessary as I wont be getting a massive jetwash and haven't even checked the requirements yet. |
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ian
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Posts: 294
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Post by ian on Apr 6, 2018 22:44:01 GMT
you've come to the right place Ian, here we believe that ' rules are for fools' , people who drive desks and push pens make rules and regs that build sales for manufacures of not needed gadgets like check valves, We, the plumbers who know what we are doing advice what you need and not what the shiney shoe desk jockey says you have to get to conform, So the way is this, run a flag up a flag pole, if it flys, its right, if it don't rethink, no one ever died because they drunk water from a lead pipe, but its against regs to use lead, lots of people die in cars, but is legal to drive a car, figures lie and liars figure, this is a no bullshit site, Its told here like it is, and your plumbing sounds ok and will work well, do it,  I`ve just realised you are Tom! Sorry I was a bit slow on the uptake lol. It`s refreshing to find a no nonsense site and approach. I think I am going to like it here and will try not to ask too many questions, honest.. Cheers for the warm welcome and for the videos you make, from a fellow (adopted) wiganer. |
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Post by tomplum on Apr 7, 2018 8:27:24 GMT
Sorry to confuse you Ian, or any one else, my new username refects my retirement oap , I spent more time fishing now but I'm always glad to pass on what I know to those who'll listen, Its nice to get locals here too ( adopted or otherwise),, |
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ian
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Posts: 294
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Post by ian on Apr 7, 2018 10:20:37 GMT
Sorry to confuse you Ian, or any one else, my new username refects my retirement oap , I spent more time fishing now but I'm always glad to pass on what I know to those who'll listen, Its nice to get locals here too ( adopted or otherwise),, Lucky bugger! I renewed my rod license last year but didn`t get to go fishing once, Hoping to change that this year. Haven`t started on my taps yet due to it pissing down and not being able to find the tmv, it is hiding in the deepest darkest depths of the van. It is true what they say about tradesman`s home being the last to get done, we don`t get paid for working at home haha. |
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Post by crowsfoot on Apr 7, 2018 11:34:12 GMT
The traditional stop tap had a loose jumper (washer) inside so the incoming supply incoming from beneath would hence be pushing the jumper upwards into the body and allow the mains water in.
However, if there is a drop in pressure and some back syphonage occurred the loose jumper would then be pushed downwards and not allow the mains to become contaminated (with the stoptap acting as a rather crude check valve).
This was all back in the day.
At a more recent WRAS training course the instructor said the there was nothing wrong in having a full bore lever valve on the incoming mains and said it was now the preferred choice.
Perhaps with all the new WRAS regulations involving single and double check valves to protect the mains they feel that the old fashioned stop tap (with it's rather crude back pressure protection) is no longer needed.
None the less they are still being fitted in new builds!
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ian
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Post by ian on Apr 7, 2018 12:50:34 GMT
Thanks crowsfoot. I hadn't considered that washer would act as a check valve. I wonder how well it works in practice.
One thing I do wonder about using a lever valve is how likely the average person is to recognise it being used as a mains stopcock. People are used to looking for a standard stopcock and not messing about with valves they don't recognise. May cause an issue in an emergency although a 1/4 turn valve would also offer quicker shutdown and be less likely to be seized and you would hope a big blue handle would give folk a clue.
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Post by crowsfoot on Apr 7, 2018 13:29:06 GMT
I would say that the lever would be much less confusing than the traditional stop tap is.
How many times does the customer turn the water off for you only for you to realise that they've actually turned it the wrong way!
Might be an interesting "toms tip" though that stop tap thing in that how good it actually is as a check valve.
Now toms retired perhaps I could give it a try whilst I'm "on the job" and video it?
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ian
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Posts: 294
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Post by ian on Apr 7, 2018 14:03:47 GMT
I would say that the lever would be much less confusing than the traditional stop tap is. How many times does the customer turn the water off for you only for you to realise that they've actually turned it the wrong way! Might be an interesting "toms tip" though that stop tap thing in that how good it actually is as a check valve. Now toms retired perhaps I could give it a try whilst I'm "on the job" and video it? Aye, it`s amazing. People use taps everyday of their life but as soon as you ask them to turn off the stoptap their brain stops working! The checkvalve thing would make a good toms top tip (maybe even turn into a mythbuster). |
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Post by tomplum on Apr 7, 2018 14:34:51 GMT
jolly good suggestion chaps, Im off to do one now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, foto
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Post by jcplumb on Apr 7, 2018 16:01:51 GMT
Thanks crowsfoot. I hadn't considered that washer would act as a check valve. I wonder how well it works in practice. One thing I do wonder about using a lever valve is how likely the average person is to recognise it being used as a mains stopcock. People are used to looking for a standard stopcock and not messing about with valves they don't recognise. May cause an issue in an emergency although a 1/4 turn valve would also offer quicker shutdown and be less likely to be seized and you would hope a big blue handle would give folk a clue. |
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