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Post by DIYDafty on May 3, 2020 22:35:32 GMT
War and Peace alert for the hard of reading.
Not had one for a few years so was getting a bit cocky and needed taking down a peg or two. Well today that sure did happen. I was creating a new tee for a new zone and also replacing a failing drayton zone valve with a honeywell.
Started off really well. RIght up to getting the pipework in place before soldering. Even had a pre-bent bit of 22mm copper knocking around which I needed so saved my back on the pipe bender.
Problems started when the vertical pipe below the pump just wouldn't stop dripping. Drip drip fucking drip for about 2 hours and still it carried on. I put my Vac on it and the vac seemed to suck like a constant thin wisp of water. Left it on for a full minute and collected maybve a litre of water then when I stopped it carried on fucking dripping. One drip every 10 seconds. I checked the header tank - water was just below the combined feed/expansion outlet. I even took out a bit more water with a big rag so I could visibly see there was no way any more water could get into the system.
Then comes mistake number 2. I tried to solder anyway. I've done it before with just a tiny amount of water, used a bigger flame and its been ok. This time as I made the last joint I started getting steam come through the first joints, maybe that steam was under pressure and forcing holes through the molten solder?
Sure enough when I went to fill up half the fucking joints were leaking.
Even better, the bastard 28mm compression on the tee at the back and also on one of the Honeywells was also dripping. These were made with brand new 28mm pipe, olives and nuts with fernox water hawk (how much to use? - I normally plaster it all round the olive but it comes away very easily) . Fuck me I've been royally fucked up the arse by the 28mm God and the 22mm God of plumbing !!!
Drained down again (but left rad vents closed) and will leave it to drip drip drip overnight and see where I am in the morning.
Any insights into either the seemingly endless supply of drips or my 28mm compressions gratefully received !
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Post by DIYDafty on May 3, 2020 22:38:23 GMT
PHOTO ABOVE: I should have said on the left is the 28mm flow from the boiler and just before it tees to the pump, it tees to a pipe going upwards - that is just a bottle vent on the end of that. Then at the back of the airing cupboard it goes up into the loft and into the header tank. There is no dedicated vent.
The pipe below the pump is the fucker I want to solder onto but CH God won't let me coz it keps dripping.
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Post by cylinderfella on May 3, 2020 23:08:29 GMT
Don't know if this will help. Bread?
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Post by crowsfoot on May 4, 2020 6:32:04 GMT
Even experienced plumbers have days like this DD, this job plumbing can put you through sheer hell at times so don't get too down.
From reading your post I'd say that the heat exchanger in the cylinder is pin holed and this is where all that excess water is coming from; you'll need to drain the whole domestic hot water side of the cylinder to stop that endless water drip and make the joint.
The little tip is when a "slight" drip is stopping you making the joint is to move the flame 3 or 4 inches in the direction of the water and turn the blowlamp up full and give that section of pipe a lot of heat then quick as you can back on the joint with the solder end ready dipped in flux and feed it in - you'll only get a few seconds, but the method as a good success rate.
The compression joints. I'd just check that the cones haven't pulled out, a small dab of jointing compound is normally all you need - the apprentice at work always wraps and couple of turns of ptfe round the cones which frustrates me, however, I let him do this because I think he needs just a little bit of re-assurance.
Today's a new day DD....Up and at 'em!
Tappy,
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Post by tomplum on May 4, 2020 7:57:32 GMT
yes these are the pains of soldering, another solution is to cut the section out, dismantle the whole thing, clean up the tee , resolder then use compression couplings to replace that section back in place, I can only echo what tappy says, don't let it get you down, retreat, reform and re attack, you will win in the end, we always do,  |
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Post by DIYDafty on May 4, 2020 16:52:25 GMT
Thanks alot tappy, tom and battle !!!!
Just taking a breather and thought I'd update. The dripping has (touch wood twice) stopped ! I was very near to draining the tanks down when after I closed a load more gate valves I think its stopped. I closed the cold feed into the cylinder and also both pump gate valves. When I closed the pump valves, I got increase in dripping. About 10 to 30 minutes after it stopped. I haven't got any 22mm tees left in endfeed or yortkshire so will reuse the ones from yesterday - I already got them off. I don't want to go out to shop unless I really have to.
Good news too on the compression issues. I noticed I couldn't do up the nuts losely very far at all of the new MV and then I realised the fking copper pipe wasn't hitting it squarely. I decided to do what Tom said all along and I removed that tee so I could see everything loosely and figure out what was wrong. Well, the tee was about half an inch too low down ! I hadn't noticed to start with because that tee fitting has very small sockets when you insert the pipe so because there is so much play I thought nothing was getting strained but I was wrong.
So, now I need to remove the paint at the top of that paint, put the compressions back then start on the dry solder work. DUnno if I'll get it done today but I hope so as family starting to complain.....
ANother War & Peace to follow late tonight....
EDIT: Battle, I didn't want to try the bread method as all the pipes are a closed system so couldn't flush it out afterwards. Mind you, a bit of bread in the system wouldn't make that much difference compared to everything else in there.
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Post by battle1066 on May 4, 2020 17:22:32 GMT
Dafty that was Cylinderfella's idea on the bread not mine.
Like the others have said its just what happens, just stay clam and keep at it.
What I do in those tight spaces I look to make the last connection compression so I know I've got a chance with the drip problem if soldering is proving to be an issue.
Additionally it's handy if you've got an assistant at various stages when your fighting so many knew areas of work your not familiar with, cause sometime you've squeezed yourself in a tight spot and just want the torch held and not to have to worry about the hot end touching cables etc.
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Post by DIYDafty on May 4, 2020 18:32:23 GMT
Dafty that was Cylinderfella's idea on the bread not mine. Like the others have said its just what happens, just stay clam and keep at it. What I do in those tight spaces I look to make the last connection compression so I know I've got a chance with the drip problem if soldering is proving to be an issue. Additionally it's handy if you've got an assistant at various stages when your fighting so many knew areas of work your not familiar with, cause sometime you've squeezed yourself in a tight spot and just want the torch held and not to have to worry about the hot end touching cables etc. Sorry about that battle & cynderfella. DO you mean you'd leave a compression last so you can do all your soldering with the pipes open and therefore somewhere for the steam to escape? I've now done all the main compressions now with "just" the soldering to do. Dry so _shouldn't_ be a problem but confidence knocked a bit. |
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Post by battle1066 on May 4, 2020 19:24:54 GMT
Dafty that was Cylinderfella's idea on the bread not mine. Like the others have said its just what happens, just stay clam and keep at it. What I do in those tight spaces I look to make the last connection compression so I know I've got a chance with the drip problem if soldering is proving to be an issue. Additionally it's handy if you've got an assistant at various stages when your fighting so many knew areas of work your not familiar with, cause sometime you've squeezed yourself in a tight spot and just want the torch held and not to have to worry about the hot end touching cables etc. Sorry about that battle & cynderfella. DO you mean you'd leave a compression last so you can do all your soldering with the pipes open and therefore somewhere for the steam to escape? I've now done all the main compressions now with "just" the soldering to do. Dry so _shouldn't_ be a problem but confidence knocked a bit. Yes if I can for the compression to solve the soldering issue. However, each job has its own problems and work around issues. |
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Post by rocketmanbkk on May 5, 2020 7:07:31 GMT
I feel that pain & frustration but drain it down fully like said.
I use jet blue on compression joints & it’s good stuff.
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Post by DIYDafty on May 5, 2020 13:24:57 GMT
Thanks for the support guys. All is good now.
I think whoever said do a full drain down (tappy?) was right. EVen though I hadn't directly done it, the feed to all tanks was off and the mother-in-law emptied the tank in a few hours (she seems to spend all her time doing the pots with a running tap even though we're on a meter...). So the CW had drained but pretty sure there was water in the cylinder. The cylinder is only about 4 years old and exchanges the heat very well so that was what made me think a pinhole unlikely but still possible I guess.
Anyway, I got it finished about 11pm. No problem with the solders. One 28 compression was leaking but not a drip - it was water pouring out. I stopped filling up, eased off the nut and the olive hadn't even cold-welded to the pipe! It was completey free. So I backed it off and this time (first time I've done this) wrapped 5 turns of ptfe, pushed the olive home and tighned up. Didn't need to tighten too much (as usual) and all was now good wit hthat one.
Then TWO gatevalves I'd only closed the day before had stuck shut ! Hate the bastards. One I freed with a bit of force but the other I couldnt with both hands. It wouldn't have been difficult to replace where it was but I really wanted the job done. A bit of desperation I took some small stillsons and eased it open.
Just the electrics to do - but thats the easy bit.
Thanks again !
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Post by DIYDafty on May 5, 2020 16:36:00 GMT
Chapter 200
Well I thought I was done. Then I noticed a drip from that bloody tee. It was already done up really tight and a further slight nip made no difference.
No matter, not a big deal as its compression so I partially drained down got it off and on to the bench. That was when I realised what was wrong. I compared the nut I was using (new 28mm from something) with the nut that was originally on it. The original would turn nearly 5 times to hand tight but the new one only twice !! THat would explain why the olive wasn't clamping down properly on the pipe and why I had no bother from the other fittings.
I've used different nuts before across fittings and never had this problem. Maybe I should be extra careful when dealing with ancient fittings - could also be an imperial fitting or something.
Anyway, hopefully I've nailed that problem so will put it back and see....
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Post by crowsfoot on May 5, 2020 19:08:25 GMT
I'm always telling the apprentice that not all nuts and cones are compatible, however, the silly twat keeps putting new nuts and cones onto the old fittings.  You can't tell these youngsters today anything... they already know it all you see! My take on that heat exchanger being the cause of the drip was based on a real life boiler change job that sent me to hell...perhaps another day I'll tell this one? |
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Post by endfeed on May 5, 2020 19:21:40 GMT
War and Peace alert for the hard of reading. Not had one for a few years so was getting a bit cocky and needed taking down a peg or two. Well today that sure did happen. I was creating a new tee for a new zone and also replacing a failing drayton zone valve with a honeywell. Started off really well. RIght up to getting the pipework in place before soldering. Even had a pre-bent bit of 22mm copper knocking around which I needed so saved my back on the pipe bender. Problems started when the vertical pipe below the pump just wouldn't stop dripping. Drip drip fucking drip for about 2 hours and still it carried on. I put my Vac on it and the vac seemed to suck like a constant thin wisp of water. Left it on for a full minute and collected maybve a litre of water then when I stopped it carried on fucking dripping. One drip every 10 seconds. I checked the header tank - water was just below the combined feed/expansion outlet. I even took out a bit more water with a big rag so I could visibly see there was no way any more water could get into the system. Then comes mistake number 2. I tried to solder anyway. I've done it before with just a tiny amount of water, used a bigger flame and its been ok. This time as I made the last joint I started getting steam come through the first joints, maybe that steam was under pressure and forcing holes through the molten solder? Sure enough when I went to fill up half the fucking joints were leaking. Even better, the bastard 28mm compression on the tee at the back and also on one of the Honeywells was also dripping. These were made with brand new 28mm pipe, olives and nuts with fernox water hawk (how much to use? - I normally plaster it all round the olive but it comes away very easily) . Fuck me I've been royally fucked up the arse by the 28mm God and the 22mm God of plumbing !!! Drained down again (but left rad vents closed) and will leave it to drip drip drip overnight and see where I am in the morning. Any insights into either the seemingly endless supply of drips or my 28mm compressions gratefully received ! if you can manage to connect you wet vac to an open end near to where your soldering it stops the water fookin your joints up👍👍👍👍 hope that helps d.d. |
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Post by DIYDafty on May 5, 2020 23:00:38 GMT
Another good tip from endfeed and tappy you can tell your apprentice that if I lived close by which I don't I would PAY YOU to work as your apprentice! Tell him since when was good quality training free?
As I again found out over the the past 2 days plumbing is a real art and really hard. Its hard enough when my "customers" are my family but bloody hell hats off to those doing it for a living. Maybe the new build stuff is easier I don't know but going in to someones house or someone's business and fixing stuff must carry a lot of risk. I can really see the value of apprenticships.
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