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Post by crowsfoot on May 5, 2023 8:10:07 GMT
At the risk of stealing Dicks idea. Since my college days I've always found this fact interesting and kept it in the back of my mind. It resurfaced some 40 years later on a HEATAS course and to no surprise HEATAS gave us a formula to work out the correct hight of the expansion pipe relative to the system!! Put the boffins in charge and this is what you get !!
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Post by battle1066 on May 5, 2023 17:23:28 GMT
At the risk of stealing Dicks idea. Since my college days I've always found this fact interesting and kept it in the back of my mind. It resurfaced some 40 years later on a HEATAS course and to no surprise HEATAS gave us a formula to work out the correct hight of the expansion pipe relative to the system!! Put the boffins in charge and this is what you get !! View AttachmentWell that is another school day, it’s never entered my head nor has anyone pointed it out other than you Tappy.
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Post by crowsfoot on May 5, 2023 20:31:00 GMT
I think that you'd need the header tank at the top of a 4 storey block of flats to be feeding the heating system on the bottom level before it actually starts naturally running into the tank! Nonetheless I do find the concept of it could happen very interesting.
Perhaps DD or Dick could give us a technical explanation?
My low tech but easy to understand explanation :- The head/pressure gets greater in any heating system with hight and from the lowest point of the system it could actually exert more upward force/thrust on the water level in the expansion pipe than it can on the water level in the feed tank?
The original college tutor if I'm remembering it right told us that "Water does always find it's own level but when it's in a column like this it behaves slightly differently". It was probably all we needed to know if a question on it popped up in that years C&Gs exam paper.
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Post by tomplum on May 5, 2023 21:06:34 GMT
my answer to that is, water finds its own level, as long as the system is sealed , the water in the expansion will move with the temperature both in the tank and the expansion pipe and the cold fill will move as well, things only go wrong when the boiler stat or the pump is faulty, here a fag packet drawing of temperature movement I remember from college
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Post by crowsfoot on May 6, 2023 9:11:00 GMT
All 100% correct tom, it's different though to what I'm saying. Interestingly, other plumbers on that HEATAS course thought they were being given a formula for working out the hight of the expansion pipe over the tank for the purpose of venting the heating system and it wasn't until I opened up my mouth about all of this that the confusion/debating began ! Re-cap on what I'm saying (B) :- A. Water will always find it's own level and the water in a header tank will always remain exactly at that same level in the expansion pipe. (wrong) B. Water will always find it's own level, however, when it's in the expansion pipe it will settle slightly higher than it is in the tank due to it being in a column. The greater the water pressure at the base (lowest point) of the central heating system the higher the level will be in the expansion pipe column. (right) I've no practical proof of this and it's never had any bearing during my 50 years of plumbing (just something of interest). Any more thoughts on this are very welcome. Tappy,
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Post by dickpuller on May 7, 2023 9:02:17 GMT
I think that you'd need the header tank at the top of a 4 storey block of flats to be feeding the heating system on the bottom level before it actually starts naturally running into the tank! Nonetheless I do find the concept of it could happen very interesting. Perhaps DD or Dick could give us a technical explanation? My low tech but easy to understand explanation :- The head/pressure gets greater in any heating system with hight and from the lowest point of the system it could actually exert more upward force/thrust on the water level in the expansion pipe than it can on the water level in the feed tank? The original college tutor if I'm remembering it right told us that "Water does always find it's own level but when it's in a column like this it behaves slightly differently". It was probably all we needed to know if a question on it popped up in that years C&Gs exam paper. If we’re talking Feed & Expansion tanks on CH systems, it’s simply expansion on the Vent Pipe(Expansion Pipes). It depends on where the Cold Feed & Expansion Pipes are connected in the system, that will impact on the Tank water level. With Low Head Vented Fully Pumped CH Systems in Flats for example; Close Coupled Tees were used for the Feed & Expansion Pipes. This was illustrated in lots of Boiler MI’s at the time, particularly with Low Water Content boilers(SE). LWC boilers required a high flow rate through them, as their Heat Exchangers were a simple coil of copper pipes & the by-pass was critical as it aided this greatly. With Expansion Pipes & Tanks on HW Vented cylinders, the Expansion Pipe Water simply heated up & the water level was higher than the Head the Tank provided, so you extended it higher before returning it back into the Tank. There was a formula/rule of thumb for this, which I can’t recall.
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Post by dickpuller on May 7, 2023 9:09:24 GMT
A yes Tom, the detail of Water Molecules & the reaction as they heat. I’ve one in the ‘Pipe Line’ explaining this further. Watch this space ladies!!
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Post by crowsfoot on May 7, 2023 19:57:01 GMT
Thanks for the input Dick on the matter. I think you are saying that the water in the expansion pipe does settle at a higher level than it does in the feed tank due to expansion of the water when heated? However, with the 4% increase in volume of heated water expansion rate I would have thought that both would stay at the same level (each expanding by 4%).
What I'm saying is that the level will be slightly higher in the expansion pipe than it is in the expansion tank by natures gravity because of it being trapped in a column? And the more head of water that the system has the higher it is projected up the expansion pipe column? It's a tricky one and I could have got it wrong, however, the HEATAS tutor was definitely relating it to the more head the system had then the greater the hight the expansion pipe needed to be. It's not really of any great importance, just something that I've always thought of as being very interesting right through my plumbing career and as a result of this staying in the back of my mind have always given my expansion pipes a good clearance above the tank.
Tappy,
Any more thoughts anyone?
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Post by tomplum on May 7, 2023 20:52:02 GMT
I'll look forward to your explanation in detail Dick
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Post by dickpuller on May 8, 2023 12:55:35 GMT
I'll look forward to your explanation in detail Dick Ah, does he mean ‘Column Pressure’ where; at a depth of 10M the water pressure is Double that of atmospheric pressure & the Hydrostatic Pressure reduces the water to half it’s original volume. So, in CF’s illustration, the column on the right the water level will be higher & the higher the whole column, the lower the volume at the base.👍👍
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Post by crowsfoot on May 9, 2023 6:39:28 GMT
Thanks Dick for not getting technical on this, it's sounds about right and as close as an explanation that I'm going to get on this one (I think). You would certainly need a lot of system head/depth before the right column could start to naturally run over into the left (tank). You know, I think the tutor who was delivering that HEATAS course did not know what he was actually teaching when he gave us the formula to work out the hight of the expansion pipe above the tank. One sketch he had the expansion pipe right up in the eves of the building and the expansion tank on the joists (must be in the Empire State Building )! Put the boffins in charge and this is what you get.
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Post by dickpuller on May 9, 2023 8:11:07 GMT
Thanks Dick for not getting technical on this, it's sounds about right and as close as an explanation that I'm going to get on this one (I think). You would certainly need a lot of system head/depth before the right column could start to naturally run over into the left (tank). You know, I think the tutor who was delivering that HEATAS course did not know what he was actually teaching when he gave us the formula to work out the hight of the expansion pipe above the tank. One sketch he had the expansion pipe right up in the eves of the building and the expansion tank on the joists (must be in the Empire State Building )! Put the boffins in charge and this is what you get. Yeah, I had a similar situation when I did my ACS resit Thur/Fri/Sat last week. I did my Ted Rogers/Dusty Bin Gas Rating calculation & the Instructor was dumb struck!!......😂😂😂😂 Mind you, they just Train you Parrot Fashion from notes, most are Course Cowboys with no experience. I just keep my mouth shut & let them spout drivel, easiest way to get through it. Which, as you can imagine, is hard for my good self😂😂 if you start correcting the daft cunts you’re there for days, wasting time!!
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Post by cylinderfella on May 9, 2023 21:30:21 GMT
At the risk of stealing Dicks idea. Since my college days I've always found this fact interesting and kept it in the back of my mind. It resurfaced some 40 years later on a HEATAS course and to no surprise HEATAS gave us a formula to work out the correct hight of the expansion pipe relative to the system!! Put the boffins in charge and this is what you get !! View AttachmentI just love that your sketch is in a 2009 diary in perfect condition!!😁👍 Like me, throw nothing away 👍👍
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