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Post by battle1066 on Apr 16, 2023 20:03:03 GMT
You'd be surprised at how many plumbers work things out exactly the way you've done Astra. To quote an old gaffer of mine "There's not really much to electrics as long as you keep the live and neutral wire apart"! Mind you, he always struck me as being a bit dangerous with wiring in spite of him being a one time college lecturer. This is around 1974 - 1978. Look at how all this as changed into today's H&S in electrics. It’s not just H&S. We’ve moved on so much from the old 240vac On/Off Systems, the Y & S plans are old hat. With modern Central Heating controls based on the ‘Bus’ automotive industry protocol. It’s never been so important to understand electronics in our industry, the changes & developments are so fast it’s breathtaking!!! Its only so they can introduced locked protocols so the man with the specialist tools can work on the equipment installed - guess what each manufacturer will have their own special access tool shortly! |
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Post by DIYDafty on Apr 16, 2023 21:13:14 GMT
As a retired software engineer things like Openthem and the bus therein ought to be something I should understand.
But really its just using more modern tech to allow boilers and controls to talk to each other. You still need pipes with water in them and physical valves to direct the flows.
Yes I accept that using a 240V wire which can either be on or off is a bit primitive to signal a "1 or a 0" but it does seem to be ripe for abuse by the manufacturers to ensure only their "approved" engineers can work on a given system.
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Post by dickpuller on Apr 17, 2023 7:43:21 GMT
It’s not just H&S. We’ve moved on so much from the old 240vac On/Off Systems, the Y & S plans are old hat. With modern Central Heating controls based on the ‘Bus’ automotive industry protocol. It’s never been so important to understand electronics in our industry, the changes & developments are so fast it’s breathtaking!!! Its only so they can introduced locked protocols so the man with the specialist tools can work on the equipment installed - guess what each manufacturer will have their own special access tool shortly! Ah, so you’d want some hairy arsed Washer Changer working on your expensive, highly efficient boiler & system?? C’mon dear boy, we’re talking about sophisticated finite controls here!! |
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Post by dickpuller on Apr 17, 2023 7:54:03 GMT
As a retired software engineer things like Openthem and the bus therein ought to be something I should understand. But really its just using more modern tech to allow boilers and controls to talk to each other. You still need pipes with water in them and physical valves to direct the flows. Yes I accept that using a 240V wire which can either be on or off is a bit primitive to signal a "1 or a 0" but it does seem to be ripe for abuse by the manufacturers to ensure only their "approved" engineers can work on a given system. Dafty, it’s because of your logic, you’re likely paying double the cost for gas than you should be. Penny wise pound foolish!!! Take your circulation pump as a case in point, you bought an expensive component, but not setting it to the correct parameters - offering the best efficiency. For a retired software engineer, your joined up thinking is found wanting😂😂😂 |
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Post by crowsfoot on Apr 17, 2023 8:44:08 GMT
We're back to this generation of plumbers thing again serving whatever are the needs of their generation where. You have to wonder just how long will the name "plumber" last because it's clearly a product of the past generation. Back in the day me old gaffer once asked me what I had been learning at college yesterday? I replied that I'd been learning how to work out the static head of the index radiator resistance in order to set the domestic circulator correctly! Me old gaffer then replied "We always set ours to #2"  !! He was quite a character was Sid (me old 70s boss), but at 64 he was clearly a product of the last generation of plumbers compared to what I was now learning in the modern 70s era. I think that the next generation (2000 - 2050?) will see plumbing further split into different specialist sections, all requiring specialist tools, specialist codes. Specialist tickets of course will be needed in order to carry out work in these sections of what was once basic plumbers work. |
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Post by dickpuller on Apr 17, 2023 10:56:02 GMT
We're back to this generation of plumbers thing again serving whatever are the needs of their generation where. You have to wonder just how long will the name "plumber" last because it's clearly a product of the past generation. Back in the day me old gaffer once asked me what I had been learning at college yesterday? I replied that I'd been learning how to work out the static head of the index radiator resistance in order to set the domestic circulator correctly! Me old gaffer then replied "We always set ours to #2" !! He was quite a character was Sid (me old 70s boss), but at 64 he was clearly a product of the last generation of plumbers compared to what I was now learning in the modern 70s era. I think that the next generation (2000 - 2050?) will see plumbing further split into different specialist sections, all requiring specialist tools, specialist codes. Specialist tickets of course will be needed in order to carry out work in these sections of what was once basic plumbers work. With Utube & the Internet in general, there’s never been a better opportunity to learn CF. There’s no reason a hairy arsed Plumber can’t learn everything they need. If you’re not hungry for knowledge, you’re in the wrong Trade. |
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Post by DIYDafty on Apr 17, 2023 12:36:00 GMT
As a retired software engineer things like Openthem and the bus therein ought to be something I should understand. But really its just using more modern tech to allow boilers and controls to talk to each other. You still need pipes with water in them and physical valves to direct the flows. Yes I accept that using a 240V wire which can either be on or off is a bit primitive to signal a "1 or a 0" but it does seem to be ripe for abuse by the manufacturers to ensure only their "approved" engineers can work on a given system. Dafty, it’s because of your logic, you’re likely paying double the cost for gas than you should be. Penny wise pound foolish!!! Take your circulation pump as a case in point, you bought an expensive component, but not setting it to the correct parameters - offering the best efficiency. For a retired software engineer, your joined up thinking is found wanting😂😂😂 I know I should have paid for you to do it. You'd do a great job turning that switch. Its just temporary until I get the chance to look into it a bit more. |
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Post by crowsfoot on Apr 18, 2023 7:36:36 GMT
We're back to this generation of plumbers thing again serving whatever are the needs of their generation where. You have to wonder just how long will the name "plumber" last because it's clearly a product of the past generation. Back in the day me old gaffer once asked me what I had been learning at college yesterday? I replied that I'd been learning how to work out the static head of the index radiator resistance in order to set the domestic circulator correctly! Me old gaffer then replied "We always set ours to #2" !! He was quite a character was Sid (me old 70s boss), but at 64 he was clearly a product of the last generation of plumbers compared to what I was now learning in the modern 70s era. I think that the next generation (2000 - 2050?) will see plumbing further split into different specialist sections, all requiring specialist tools, specialist codes. Specialist tickets of course will be needed in order to carry out work in these sections of what was once basic plumbers work. With Utube & the Internet in general, there’s never been a better opportunity to learn CF. There’s no reason a hairy arsed Plumber can’t learn everything they need. If you’re not hungry for knowledge, you’re in the wrong Trade. And very interesting it all is indeed. The recently newly proposed due regs' like it being made illegal to terminate an expansion pipe into an MST along with every pipe you install must be lagged and labelled (what a ball-ach that's going to be) are not things that I will now ever have to do in my time of plumbing and will be for the new-bees to do. |
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Post by DIYDafty on Apr 18, 2023 15:00:48 GMT
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Post by crowsfoot on Apr 18, 2023 18:08:45 GMT
It mostly makes sense to me in what it seems to be saying, however, the article does seem to be written by some technical boffin and not of a plumbers understanding of a CH system. You have to ask yourself is it really viable to put all this extra technology (all at the paying customers expense) into these new self regulating pumps for something that could actually end up work against some of the other hi -tech modern CH system controls? Are we just simply getting technical just for the sake of it seems to me to be the hidden message in the article?? Back in the day the customer would often enquire "how much extra money is that pump going to cost me when it's on"? Our standard answer to the question was "it takes about the same amount of electricity to run it as a light bulb does" (Even on the #2 setting )! Tappy, |
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Post by battle1066 on Apr 18, 2023 19:02:28 GMT
It makes sense and opened my eyes to what problems you could introduce into your home heating system by fitting an overly complicated piece of equipment (pump) to stupidly simple system.
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Post by dickpuller on Apr 19, 2023 10:34:34 GMT
Lets get one thing perfectly clear Dafty, I’m not travelling from God’s country to the South of England to fiddle with your knob!! In interesting wee read that son, but it really just confirms good modern design practice. The optimum system will modulate a gas boiler to run at its minimum depending on heat requirement. Your CH is on 24/7 in the Heating season, it maintains a constant temperature, monitoring outdoor temperatures, system temperatures & ambient temperatures. The efficiency of the circulation pump is irrelevant, to the efficiency of a boiler. A condensing Gas/Oil Boiler will run at its optimum efficiency, with a system designed for Low Temperatures. 50°C Flow 30°C Return Delta T 20°C. This will enhance efficiency & the boiler condensing most of the time, but it’s a fairly low flow rate. A Heat Pump differs, again, it needs a Low Temperature system that on 24/7, but a Delta T of 5-8°C, a high flow rate & limited resistance. The efficiency of heat pump diminishes greatly by short cycling. Of Course, all the above is only relevant to well insulated homes. |
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Post by DIYDafty on Apr 19, 2023 12:04:56 GMT
So if I did pay you an all-expensives helicoptor trip to my pad complete with bunga bunga party thrown in for free how would you set this pump on a 30 year old system, with a non-condensing boiler but reasonably well insulated house ? Lets say about 18 rads (as a few are switched off most of the time).
It used to run well on setting 2 but now as you know we have the options on the left of the dial for proportional pumping or whatever its called.
As you and others imply, I wonder is there much point trying to eek out a few watts from a pump when the boiler is using many thousands of watts. So thinking of setting it using old style setting of 2. I still get the benefit of a very quiet pump which I like.
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Post by joinerjohn on Apr 19, 2023 16:08:49 GMT
Lets get one thing perfectly clear Dafty, I’m not travelling from God’s country to the South of England to fiddle with your knob!! In interesting wee read that son, but it really just confirms good modern design practice. The optimum system will modulate a gas boiler to run at its minimum depending on heat requirement. Your CH is on 24/7 in the Heating season, it maintains a constant temperature, monitoring outdoor temperatures, system temperatures & ambient temperatures. The efficiency of the circulation pump is irrelevant, to the efficiency of a boiler. A condensing Gas/Oil Boiler will run at its optimum efficiency, with a system designed for Low Temperatures. 50°C Flow 30°C Return Delta T 20°C. This will enhance efficiency & the boiler condensing most of the time, but it’s a fairly low flow rate. A Heat Pump differs, again, it needs a Low Temperature system that on 24/7, but a Delta T of 5-8°C, a high flow rate & limited resistance. The efficiency of heat pump diminishes greatly by short cycling. Of Course, all the above is only relevant to well insulated homes. Dickie dear boy, you lost me as soon as you mentioned Delta T ( I thought Delta T was a pop band ) 😂😂😂😂😂 |
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Post by crowsfoot on Apr 19, 2023 20:10:45 GMT
We'll all have to keep an eye open for them JJ in next months Eurovision Song Contest ! DD if you do select #2 to run the pump on me old gaffer up in heaven will certainly approve of it . |
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